The CoG and the Holy Roman Empire–how they got it totally wrong

This is what the Holy Roman Empire is all about: destroying people. Above all, it is a machine of destruction! That is what it is famous for.”

These words came from the illustrious Gerald Flurry in his September ’11 cover article World’s Greatest Danger: Germany

AAAAGGGGHHHHH!!!

Domineers Over Europe Again. 

I’ve been working on this article off and on since I first saw this article. I’ve done some research on the Holy Roman Empire, and found Flurry’s fear mongering wanting. Yes, Germany always wants an empire, but to be honest, so do most other nations. And there is a lot of talk about how the current Eurozone crisis may be giving Germany that empire right under everyone’s noses. Possible, though unlikely. But one thing is clear: the statement, “This is what the Holy Roman Empire is all about: destroying people…” is simply false.

He arrives at this conclusion via the application of Godwin’s Law. Since the Nazis were brutal destroyers of humanity (or at least the classes of humanity they didn’t like), and since the short-lived empire they formed was supposedly a resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire of old (which may well have been the Fuhrer’s dream—more on this later), then that means the HRE is a machine of destruction. Right…

I was, for a time, worried that this was going to be a bit of a “boring” history paper, and to explain how the Trumpet is wrong in this particular will require some history; but the more I read of Flurry’s article the more interesting my article got! People fear what they don’t understand. It is my purpose to help everyone understand, so that they can sleep the sound sleep of those who do not have Tribulation nightmares.

Charlemagne

So far as we are concerned here, the first Holy Roman Empire was started under Charlemagne. Charlemagne (French), or Charles the Great (German) was a Frankish King way back in the late 700’s C.E. He was crowned “Emperor of the Romans” in 800 after protecting the Pope (and Papal Lands) from invading Lombards (Italians). He was, by all accounts, a true believer and devout Catholic who protected the Vicar of Christ, in addition to inheriting a rather large European Empire; so as recognition of all this, the Pope crowned him Emperor. And why Emperor of the Romans (thus making his empire the Holy Roman Empire)? Because the greatness that was Rome (and the actual Roman Empire) was not such a distant memory and everyone wanted to be the Emperor of Rome even hundreds of years later.

But yes, our buddy Charles has been made infamous (for us in the church) as a conquering butcher who went about converting

Seems he inherited more than he conquered for himself...

with the sword. W/PCG made it sound as if he was going around doing a very serious version of Cake or Death. Yes, he did conquer lands inhabited by Pagans, and he forced them to convert to Christianity. But to make such a big deal of it is the same as saying, “many years ago, there was this horrible, dastardly, deceitful Used Car Salesman named Dave who would swindle the people! Dave was truly a man without a conscience, delighting in fixing up the cars he sold just well enough that they’d pass the test drive!” Well, sure, Dave was a dirty fellow, but no worse than any other used car salesman. Any Christian King who conquered Pagan lands automatically exacted conversion from the populace. Either they really believed that theirs was the superior religion, or it was simply the pragmatic thing to do, as nothing is more divisive than religious differences—so make them convert and thus unify your conquests with your home territories.

But Charlemagne wasn’t just about “converting by the sword”; he brought learning and scholarship back to Europe to such a degree it is known as the Carolingian Renaissance! Knowing the CoGs’ aversion to any kind of education outside of church lit, maybe that’s the reason they demonize him to such a degree! Lol.

The “historical” Holy Roman Empire

When you look up Holy Roman Empire, it is pretty well accepted that it didn’t really get established and settled until the crowning of King Otto I in 962 (and lasts until 1806). Also, it wasn’t called “Holy” until 1157 when the name of the Roman Empire was officially changed, and then in 1512 it became Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. So, again (back in 962) a Pope was in dire straits from conquering enemies, and again turned to our fierce German friends (even though the once mighty Frankish Empire had largely collapsed into a loose association of semi-independent kinglets).

So, Pope John XII crowns Otto Emperor of the Romans if he will get rid of the invaders (a little quid pro quo never hurt anyone…). Additionally, Otto needs to “endorse” John as the real Pope, as apparently this was an era of Popes and Antipopes—whoever won the contest was the Pope and the loser the Antipope.

However, this is where it gets interesting. Back in this time period (962-1060 approx), the newly crowned Roman Emperors felt they had power above the pope, and so would dismiss the ones they didn’t like (usually by endorsing and helping an antipope). So, you see, the Holy Roman Empire was not a tool of the Pope as Armstrong (and Flurry, etc) would have us believe! The German Emperors would fight the Pope just as often as protect him!

The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation is an important part of European history. It was a very long-lived Empire that was pretty big (covering either in whole or in part a total of 17 modern European nations). When unified, it was a force to be reckoned with. But it was not this monster the church taught us it was. It wasn’t going around conquering and killing everything in sight. Its kings were even elected. Sure, there were long family dynasties, where the sons were always elected (by the Princes who controlled certain key provinces), but if there was a superior claimant, he could very easily be elected over the son of the previous King/Emperor.

Impressive and worthy of note though it was, it was not the Empire as led by Darth Vader and The Emperor. French philosopher Voltaire even once opined, “This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire”. This was probably said, in part, on account of the Empire’s very fractured nature. At many periods in its existence it was more like the United States under the Articles of Confederation; it was more like a collection of semi-independent duchies (sometimes hundreds of them) than a British, or even Roman style empire.

So, not to belabor the point…this empire lasted until 1806, when naught but a shadow of its former Glory, it is under threat from Napoleon. In order to frustrate Napoleon’s ambition to become Holy Roman Emperor by defeating Austria (really the only nation the “Empire” ruled over), Emperor Francis II dissolves the Empire and declares himself merely Emperor of Austria.

Rather a pitiful end for what started out as a mighty power.

What’s it all mean??

So, what about all this talk of a “resurrected” HRE? And, specifically, the church is meaning the HRE of the German Nation. Well, you see, there is this medieval concept of translatio imperii. The long and the short of it was it lent legitimacy to the current King/Kingdom. It is as if the US were to collapse (along with a general collapse of the current society), future rulers in Canada and Mexico and maybe even England would claim (hundreds of years later) to be the new President of the United States of America, carrying on the ideals of Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

But, of course, when your head is filled with Image of Daniel and the idea that the Holy Roman Empire can be endlessly resurrected (since the “Stone cut without hands” (JC) didn’t come down and crush it when it actually existed), and when you think the Germans are actually the ancient Assyrians (who seem to be God’s favorite “Israel Bashing” people) who God will use to crush Anglo-American modern-day Israel (both German-Assyrianism and Anglo-Israelism we’ve debunked here and here)…well, then you tend to get a bit uppity about every bit of news coming out of Europe.

Of course, a bit of “end o’ times” fear mongering is also good for the bank account. And when you look at the actual history of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, and hold that up against the statement “This is what the Holy Roman Empire is all about: destroying people. Above all, it is a machine of destruction! That is what it is famous for.”, then you can clearly see something isn’t right.

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25 thoughts on “The CoG and the Holy Roman Empire–how they got it totally wrong

  1. Once again an excellent and provocative post.

    Apparently, Flurry is a British name from the 11th century and has its own coat of arms. Maybe GF has a personal stake in this HRE stuff.

    Not that it’s going anywhere as you point out: More delusions — Finagle’s Law, draw the curve and pick the points to match.

    Thanks for the reference to Godwin’s Law. I was going to look it up. It’s the reason I used Mao Tse-Tung on the Supreme Cult blog instead of you-know-who.

    Yet here we are.

    A new round of claiming that the HRE will be the death of us all… again. Sorry, but the wolf hasn’t shown up around the village for a good 66 years: What are the chances now?

    Nevertheless, we appreciate the foray into Medevial History. It was an impressive job.

    Without it, I would have to rely on “Merlin” on the Syfy Channel where they have all those lovely tomatoes on the table in the background….

    • An impressive job, you say? Wow, thanks! I was going to add a bunch more history…but then remembered I wasn’t writing a History Paper for high school…lol!

      But seriously, they bashed us over the head with that whole HRE stuff and really it is totally meaningless rubbish…The More You Know, eh?

      • Eric, as I consider over 5 decades of totally meaningless rubish, I contemplate the damage it has done to my neural network, killing off billions of brain cells at a time — many of them starved to death. Science and logic are helping to restore some functioning, but the outlook is not hopeful.

        Thanks for the stimulation to help reestablish some of the connections of a badly short-circuited mind.

        Flurry and his ilk are beyond the worst that even Syfy could offer, and, unfortunately, he really exists. It’s a lot easier when you know the monsters aren’t real….

  2. In a letter, Elder John Kiesz points out this failure of logic by Armstrong and his sheeple:

    “Just as sure as he failed in some of his former predictions, just so sure will he fail in some more of his current predictions. He says that the United States, England and Canada will be taken into captivity by the Germans. If this were true then these could not be present in the Battle of Armageddon in the Near East, to oppose Russia and her hordes. But the lion (England) and the young lions (her offspring) will be present to fight against Russia according to Ezekiel 38:10-13.”
    http://hwarmstrong.com/wordpress/

    • hahaha…once again proof that the bible says whatever a person wants it to say, depending on what lens you look at it through. Of course, that’s the whole reason the book was written in poetic, metaphorical form–so that only those whose minds were opened by God would understand the TRUE meaning. Right? But who could ever say what the TRUE meaning is when every explanation sounds as plausible as all the others?

      BAH!

  3. I’d highly recommend that anyone with interest in this topic pick up the DVD “Blind Spot”. It is in the German Language, with English subtitles, and is the memoires of Trudl Junge, who was one of Adolf Hitler’s private secretaries. A viewer from Armstrongite background will notice many parallels to Armstrongism.

    People make all manner of argumentations regarding the meaning or rationale behind certain wars, as witnessed by the fact that many see our own US Civil War as being a war to preserve state’s rights rather than a war over the ending or preservation of slavery. The same is true about WW II. One of the internal factors which motivated Hitler was the perceived need to fight and defeat Bolshevism, which he feared would eventually take over the entire globe. He felt that the West, or the Allies lacked the will to do this. That is not to say that Hitler actually loved Jewish people, it’s just to say that genocide was not the only thing going through Hitler’s mind.

    Also, if one were to read Josephus, one would find that the Romans were respected for their military training and organization, their basic sense of justice, and the fact that they allowed captured or subjugated peoples to govern themselves, under Roman review of course, by their own system of laws and preserving their own native culture. The Germans and the Roman Empire are clearly not the total boogeyman which they were made out to be!

    BB

    • If the Roman Empire had survived its despicable endorsement of the Christian cult, Hellenic culture would have delivered the Enlightenment and modern science much earlier and the world wouldn’t have been plunged into a Dark Age. So, no, the Romans were no bogeymen. They represented the best of Western civilization for a long time…until they fell under the sway of a goddamn mystic in Constantine (whose corpse should have been dragged through the streets and cast into the Tiber). Hitler, too, was another mystic who, through delusional hubris and general idiocy, destroyed an otherwise laudable society.

      • Quoting BB paraphrased. “The Germans weren’t the total bogeyman they ‘re painted out to be.” Just when you think you’ve heard it all,along comes another 180 degree, mind shattering inaccurate statement + revisionist historian effort! Germany: started two world wars, resulting in millions of dead allied + German men, women + children! Their track record of occupied countries: was that a Panzer picnic BB? Have the survivors ALL lied about their experiences at the hands of the self perceived + advertised “Master Race?” Were the Nazis really just a misunderstood group: out to better the world and save us from Communism? With a tad of ‘racial cleansing’ to the tune of over 8,000,000 murdered + all the lives stated above!… Sheeesh!

    • This is in reply to Danny: Yeah, the Nazis were evil, but that does not make the Germans evil. Of course, the whole idea of “be afraid of the Germans–be very afraid” comes from the doctrine of British Israelism and the accompanying German Assyrianism. If you read the links I provided in the post above, you’ll see German Assyrianism doesn’t hold water, and thus Germany is just one more nation with a history of conquest, no different from Spain or France, or England (the difference with England is that they didn’t try to take over Europe…well, they tried to take over France in the 1300s and 1400s).

      The “ethnic cleansing” by the Nazis is not a new, or particularly Nazi, idea or practice. This kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years; what makes it seem particularly evil is that nothing of the sort had happened in Modern times. When you read history, though, you’ll see that today’s “ethnic cleansing is evil” attitude is very recent.

  4. Very interesting read – HWA, Meredith, Flurry, Pack, Rightenbaugh, et al use history to manipulate people by keeping them steeped in fear so deep they are unable to think for themselves or reason past the interpretations and speculations. HWA saw the atrocities of WW2 and interpreted every “end-time” prophecy based on German aggression under Hitler and convinced his followers that concentration camps and a torturous future were in store for any who did not stick close to him and his leadership. I know, I grew up hearing about the camps and the tortures and had vivid, terrifying dreams of it all for years – as did many of the kids I knew during those years. A few facts that I later came to understand helped me to put much of the dogma into perspective: 1) the German people suffered unspeakably during the war, many thousands of her citizens were executed for failure to fully support the regime, others starved and lost everything, and many watched their sons slowly evaporate into the German army as the age level for induction went lower and lower to even absorb the pre-teenaged boys. When the American soldiers arrived the German people embraced them as their liberators. The German people paid a horrific price. For so many, it was either shoot or be shot, and the government controlled everything. 2) There are, in the United States, more people of direct German descent than there are presently living in Germany. You can visit parts of the US that feel as German as Berlin. If Germany wished to conquer the United States, should one consider that perhaps they already have? 3) The Nation of Germany, now intact, occupies a land mass equivalent in size to an average state of the USA. Their cities are crowded and there is no room for expansion, period. Germany has a policy of not developing any more precious farm land or natural areas for urban growth. Housing is very difficult in very many of the heavily populated areas. Logically, if Germany were going to take captive massive numbers of American, Canadian, British and other citizens of modern Israel, where in bloody hell are they going to put them? There is no room. 4) Modern Germany, while still considered untrustworthy by much of Europe, has emerged as a stabilizing financial energy on not only the European continent but in the world at large. Yet she is suffering her own economic problems as is most of the rest of the world – most of which is too broke to raise an army. We have entered an era when for most nations it is not rational to raise a terrifically expensive force of manpower to attempt to expand one’s territories. In the past huge fortunes were made by enterprising individuals during times of warfare. Today, those huge fortunes are largely made in the global marketplace. There is no financial incentive to blowing up your customers.

    Religions in general learned from ancient times the best way to control human beings is through fear. They use this force on a wholesale level, and actually trample on the very words of the One they presume to represent, Who said, “Fear not.” And more than once. And if you can control a man through fear, you have direct access to his wealth. The post Worldwide Church of God has devolved into hundreds of sects, factions, cults and independent groups – no two of which can get along. Their people long for weddings and funerals for opportunities to reunite with old friends and even family members now divided by loyalties to one leader over another. Many, in spite of the absolute disintegration of the Worldwide empire, are desperately trying to recreate it and repackage the product to attract a new market, like they must save souls while at the same time teaching that the world is not lost and a time is coming when all mankind will enjoy a chance for salvation. You are welcomed warmly when you visit one of these micro-groups, and they rejoice over new members, most of which are simply changing allegiances from one group to another. But if you question, do not conform, or do not support as they expect, the smiles quickly fade, you are invited out the door, and left for dead. I have rarely seen one member or one beloved leader fight to defend Jesus Christ as feverishly as they fight over their presumed positions of authority or their rightful place as the Phildelphian remnant. And I have looked far and wide.

    So, come to think of it, it looks like we’ve made history – and perhaps on a scale that rivals the treachery and exploits of the Roman Empire… just not so subtle.

    What we’ve learned can be put to good use, and then it becomes valuable. That’s how all things can work for good. There’s a lot of people who would benefit extremely if we could help them put that hammer down and stop hitting themselves in the head… or stop swinging it at their fellow true believer. 🙂

    • This is why I love this site (besides the fact it is mine): it attracts intelligent commentary like this. I’ve perused a lot of comments sections on the Web and most of it is worthless–just idiots babbling idiocy. That happens here, too, of course, but the outcome is always a sound thrashing for the idiot in question, who is subsequently cowed into not troubling us with its presence any longer. On the other hand, we like to praise the meritorious visitors in the hopes they will keep coming back to give us things to think about. So, consider yourself praised, Finn.

    • Jase – About the numbers of Germans in the US, I came across this information several years ago when I was working on ancestral research and I wish I could tell you the exact source but it was in some of the genealogy information I went through about the European immigrants that came to America. If you did some searching on the web about German Americans you might come across the same info. If i come across anything like it again, I will forward it to you. Wish I could be of more help at the moment, but I will keep my eyes open for a source for this info.

  5. Mikey – as far as being the best tools for motivating people in any kind of a positive endeavor, is there really any difference between fear and anger? And anyway, I thought felines were indifferent to fear.

    Saw your site, your writing is hilarious, makes me almost wish I knew you. 🙂 You are definitely one of the more intelligent breeds.
    And you make good points.

  6. Finn, do remember to support the Domestic Companion Party in the upcoming elections this November… if appropriate (after all, you might not be a United States citizen… I’m assuming that if you are you can vote and aren’t a convicted felon!).

    Well, you know, cats do have some fears. What they are, I won’t say. It may give you power over us. We like to remain independent.

    Anger though, is more powerful than fear: It gives an evolutionary advantage in the survival of the fitest. Fear… well, you just don’t make much progress hiding in the briar patch all the time, do you? With anger, fury (furry fury), rage, it is possible to gain vast followings of people who perceive you as being positive (while you tear everything in sight down to the ground). They will pay you. They will make you their champion.

    The angry will promise to lead you into the Kingdom (possibly dying from a heart attack before they get there)!

    • Good point… men like Rush Limbaugh, A Hitler, G Flurry, D Pack, and others breed a sense of anger into their followers, so they say the same things, do the same things, believe the same things, often in an angry rage toward those who think differently. They run around screaming opinions and ideas like they are proven facts, in a contest of whoever yells the loudest has the most credibility. Arm these followers with a weapon, whether it’s a rifle or a Bible, and there is no telling what wonders may be accomplished. Might even cause a person to be excommunicated and left for dead.

  7. Gerald: Had we known that the ordeals we put you through in high-school would have resulted in your current psychosis we wouldn’t have been so mean — still Christfags and retards were put on the earth for a purpose — they’re both hilarious to watch when confronted by anything beyond their limited understanding or made to drop their pants in the girl’s locker-room.

  8. I have kind a running joke with my husband, that maybe the beast empire of revelation is… the USA! After all, look around you – see any other empires? Sure, we’re not oppressed over here in white bread north america, but if you happen to live in Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Iraq, (I know I’m leaving some out), you might feel like you’re under the thumb of an evil empire!

    • LOL! Funny running joke. It is sad how much the US does seem to be a bit of an “Evil Empire”…we even have our own “secret” prison for the torture…er, Enhanced Interrogation…of suspected terrorists/Enemies of the State…

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  10. I totally agree with every word that the prophet Gerald Flurry says because he “is”God’s man! And i will stand by him no matter what,and he doesn’t even know me yet.

  11. Uhmmm…ok, James. So, what’s your game here?

    So, secret torture prisons are good? Well, I guess Gauntanamo isn’t that secret anymore…but seriously, have you no knowledge of Soviet Russia? Every single person the KGB, etc, arrested as an Enemy of the State confessed to numerous crimes and implicated their families and friends. Why? Were they all guilty of all the crimes they confessed to? Not hardly! But when you’re tortured enough, you’ll confess to anything just to make it stop. So, would you say that torture is a good way of obtaining information?

    How about all the people we’re holding just b/c some poor Pakistani wanted the reward money the US was offering and turned in his neighbor (whom he didn’t get along with)? Now, let’s “detain” him, practice “enhanced interrogation” on him…and then, eventually, when we realize he’s useless to us, let’s let him go. Yeah–now you’ve CREATED a militant who will stop at nothing to fight us and spread the story of how evil we are and encourage all his friends to fight us.

  12. Pingback: This Old Pope « Armstrong Delusion

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